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Clouds of Dust

Joe Budden discusses PCP addiction, an attempt on his life and a spanking new sophomore album.

by Douglas Passion | 2005.05.25

Joe Budden is a collection of contradictions. He's a non-drinker who makes songs for the club, a mixtape legend who does his best work on intensely personal tracks and an old-school dude trapped in a 106 & Park marketing machine. Back with his second album, The Growth (a quirky title from a man with a vocal cord polyp), the New Jersey native spent some time with Loosie to discuss a tumultuous hiatus which included beef with The Game and a botched attempt on his life.

Before your first album, you said it was a “classic”. What’s your opinion on that album now?

That’s a good question. Looking back on that album, I would take four songs off and throw them shits across a football field somewhere. If that album was minimized to 12, 13 records, I’d probably feel the same way; I’d probably say it was a classic. To me, anyway.

Does that make you question your judgment now?

No, not at all. A lot of songs on the first album were real old. “Pusherman” I did before I had a deal, “Walk With Me” I did in 2001, a lot of my famous songs are really old. At the time my first was coming out, my voice was going so I couldn’t really record to much. My voice was going, “Pump It Up” was racing up the charts, and they tried to rush me. I couldn’t even stop them and go record – ‘cause I couldn’t record – so I just had to go with what I had. Rather than just give niggas 13, I was always again that. I said, “Fuck it, lemme go ahead and put 17 on it, even though we only get paid for 12.” That’s what it was. It didn’t have anything to do with my judgment.

So how are you going to make sure the second album is the classic you believe capable yourself of making?

The second go ‘round, I’m a little more knowledgeable that I was the first time. I think my judgment is a tad bit better – not that it was bad the first time. Production-wise, I think it’s better than the first album. I think it has the same balance that the first album had. And balance is always tricky. Niggas will either “yay” you or “nay” you depending on your balance. I think lyrically, the album is superior to the first album. So overall, I would say it’s superior, even though certain song on the first album can never be duplicated, such as “Walk With Me” or “Ten Minutes”.

What sort of recognition do you think it will get?

To be honest, I can give a fuck. I don’t really care. I put out one album and countless appearances on mixtapes, and I’m respected as an emcee. And I ain’t really went hard yet. That’s how I feel. The first album got great reviews, and I was happy with that. As long as I get the same about of respect and get recognized for my actual emceeing ability, I’m alright, man. You gonna have your niggas that say “the album is a piece of shit”. You gonna have those niggas, they’re everywhere. You’re gonna have your niggas that say it’s a classic even though I might not be. Before my career is over, though, I’m a give them niggas a classic album.

Some artists have trouble adjusting from mixtapes to albums. Right now, you’re sort of in that middle area where it could go either way.

Yeah, I’m hangin’ in the middle somewhere. I hate when niggas just classify me as a “mixtape rapper”. I mean, yeah, I be on the mixtapes and I been on them for quite some time, but what the fuck is a “mixtape rapper”? When I hear that, I think of a nigga that’s good on the mixtapes and can’t make a record. Some people may feel like that about me, but I certainly don’t. Hopefully this album will change all of that “mixtape rapper”, “punchline rapper” and “party rapper” shit that niggas like to say.

On your first album, people knew you best from Desert Storm and Clue tapes. You were marketed along the same lines as someone like Fabolous, who you may or may not really be like as an artist.

With all respect to Fabolous, I think we’re totally different artists. I’m not like too many other artists in the game. When you talk about balance and shit, people might get it fucked up when they hear your single and it’s a club record or they hear your second single and it’s a club record or they hear you make a girl record and start to think you’re this poppy, commercial, crossover rapper. A lot of my stuff is pretty intense and pretty deep if you ever bother to take the time to listen.

On one of Royce’s the 5"9’s songs, he said “my wife would rather listen to Joe Buddens, no disrespect, but fuck a party now”.

I heard him. I didn’t take it as a diss, though. I like Royce.

When you first came out, you were talking about stuff like jumpoffs and getting head in the whip – things that may have been more geared towards a club or more juvenile audience -- yet the album was darker. Was that intentional?

Yep. That’ll probably happen for the remainder of my career. Lemme not say that. I’m not going to shy away from that, but aside from being so intense, I go to the club, I get head and I like bitches. So I don’t think it’s really such a bad thing. I celebrate niggas being diverse, being versatile. Have fun, experiment. If you can make club records and then turn around and…I heard intense Nelly records that I was like “Oh shit, what the fuck?” That’s the kind of stuff I support, even though it does leave you open to be categorized.

Would you say it fair for you to be categorized with guys like Fab, Cassidy, Young Gunz, J-Kwon? That’s sort of the perception that was put out there.

I would agree.

Yet you’re referencing Tyrus Edney and O.C. – I’m thinking, “This is an old school cat.”

I love Hip-Hop. When I was on Hot97, J-Kwon was up there and I think the nigga shitted on Raekwon or somebody. It was something I found to be so fucking disrespectful. He said something like “Raekwon’s not selling records like me”. Some shit I wanted to smack his head off for. I just felt like he was disrespecting Hip-Hop. I think that might be the case with a lot of young niggas, they rappin’ and they sellin’ a couple records and they getting this notoriety – and they just don’t have any idea of the foundation or no type of respect for it or nothing. No knowledge of shit.

Is it awkward or a something of a dichotomy for you to be put in the same category as those dudes?

Not really. I’m 24 years old, so they figure, “What other category do we put him in”. A lot of the younger dudes, that’s how they are. They just don’t know any better. It would take for a nigga to really know me, to reference the things that you named, to know that, “Alright, this nigga’s not really 24.” Even though I am. But I’m a lot deeper than that, or a lot older than that, or a lot wiser than the average 24-year old.

Shit, I always assumed you were like 28.

Everybody thinks that, even in the hood. I be like, “I’m 24”. Niggas be like, “Yeah, whatever, nigga, you about 32.” I was like, nah, nowhere near. I’m about one of the only rapper that’s honest about his age.

On the song “Whatever It Takes”, off Clinton Sparks’ album, you talked about depression and addiction. What was the motivation for making that song?

I was fucked up at the time. Clinton Sparks had asked me to do something for his album for a very long time. I was actually just supposed to just go in and do a 16-bar freestyle and give him the a cappella. But I was fucked up at the time. I was going through some shit and it was time to vent. So I went in the studio, picked that beat and I just started doing it. I didn’t want to stop. I didn’t think it was something that Clinton Sparks wanted. He asked for a 16-bar freestyle; you normally want some punchlines, some witty shit, some talk-shit shit. I was going far to the left, but everyone loved the records and I loved the record.

Was it therapeutic?

It’s therapeutic for me any time I’m in the booth. Rap – music, period – is therapeutic for me. I bump that song now, to this day. If I’m feeling some types of way, it just helps. Music is almost like a picture; you can look at that picture and remember everything that was going on at that time. So it’s the same thing with the songs.

Does it feel strange knowing that so many people in the public have access to your personal thoughts?

Nah, not at all. I’m not ashamed of anything I’ve ever done.

Have you returned at all to dust or weed?

Nah. July 3rd, it’ll be eight years for me. And it’s hard, especially in this industry. But nah, I ain’t that fucked up. We ain’t gonna get there.

Why do you say it’s hard in this industry?

‘Cause you’re surrounded by a fucking bunch of bullshit. You’re surrounded by bullshit like dust and X and drinks and all this other shit. Then, on top of that, you’ve got all this political bullshit that niggas just hate to deal with. So you want something to be a stress reliever or something to that effect. That usually does it. You can get a shot of Hen and be alright for a couple of seconds. But unfortunately, I’m not able to do that -- or I’m not doing that.

PCP is well known for causing hallucinations and…

Dust is great. I don’t care what anybody says. Dust is great. Just not for me.

Anything crazy ever happen to you when using it?

Nah, man. I wasn’t one of them niggas who thought they were in the ocean swimming, thought they found the Titanic. Niggas do a lot of dumb shit on PCP, man. I just liked to fuckin’ roll up real quick and then go rob somebody. Or go break in a house or something then go home and relax. That’s what I was for me: go get high, go break the law, and go to bed.

Everyone has a backstory – convict, drug dealer, been shot a few times – you didn’t really have one.

I’m a make up a story. Everyone else is doing it, so fuck it. Matter of fact, I just got shot on the way here. Print that.

Speaking of people getting shot, what’s your take on the whole thing with 50 and The Game?

Eh. Them guys in their own category. Whatever they do, they do. I don’t have anything negative to say about those brothers. I don’t know. Like I said, I’m gonna go make some shit up.

What happened in Jersey? Was that an attempted car-jacking?

Nah, that wasn’t a carjacking. That was nigga trying to dump real quick. This was last October in Jersey, me and about four other guys were in my truck. I had about four other cars behind me. We were just sitting there. I had a 13-inch screen in my truck and we were trying to get it to work before we went to club; it was my man’s birthday. It was pretty big event; we had, all together, about 25 people with us. So we were about to leave and the window was rolled down – it was nice outside in October, believe it or not – and a fucking bike rolls up. A nigga with a mask on puts a gun in the car and starts clicking. Nothing happened, it didn’t go off. He had to click at least five times, real quick, like “bom, bom, bom, bom, bom.” He said, “My bad, I’m just playin’” and he sped off. We chased him. I fucking drove that Hummer on sidewalks, through fences, trying to catch this nigga. Fucking other cars went around other blocks and we cornered him. The nigga ran in the precinct which was the best thing for him to do at the time. And I’m glad he did, ‘cause niggas would have killed him that night.

Do you know what that was about?

I have an idea, but I don’t care to share it. I don’t think it had anything to do with me; I don’t think it was personal. It may have had something to do with a few people I was with.

In the past, you’ve said that “rap sucks”. Do you still feel that way?

I still think it sucks. I don’t think rap sucks, I think that rappers suck. Skillwise, content – I don’t really care about the single that you put out, ‘cause that’s not what I’m checking for anyway. I understand what you’re trying to do and the audience you’re trying to appeal to. I’m one of the niggas that want to go breeze through your album and see what you’re talking about and what you’re doing and the concepts you came up with and how you’re being creative. It’s just all wack to me.

What’s the last classic album to you, a rapper doing what you want to hear?

Beanie Sigel. The Becoming.

Going from Beanie to Jay, how do feel about Jay being an executive over at Def Jam?

Eh. I’ll find out when this album comes out. Right now, it’s cool, it’s great, he’s working hard. I ain’t really have time to focus on him and what he’s doing, I’m doing so much myself. But from what see, it’s not a problem so far.

You’ve had an admiration of his talents as an emcee.

In my opinion, he’s the best to ever do it. As a rapper. But he ain’t up here rappin’. So that don’t have shit to do with the price of tea in China. He could be the best rapper and the worst businessman and the worst president in the world. I have yet to find that out.

You don’t want him to be Michael Jordan on the Wizards.

Exactly. Michael Jordan got fired from the Wizards. I don’t give a fuck about your great career, nigga. What can you do now? But like I said, right now, he’s doing a great job.

Any plans to get him on a record? The “Pump It Up” remix shit with both of you came out pretty hot.

Yeah, it was nuts. But nah. Nah. I ain’t have any plans for that. If it happens, great.

Riggs told me a while back that you were considering entering Fight Klub – did that go down?

Nah, these niggas was scared. But I was certainly open to it. I would have done the Fight Klub shit in a minute. I was even talking to Riggs about setting up a couple of things and niggas didn’t want to do it. I guess when you’re a successful recording artist with a record deal, you think twice about things like that. But I was ready to rock.

Was there anyone you were specifically trying to battle?

Anybody. I didn’t care. But they wanted to have me battle Shells. No disrespect to Shells, but I’m not doing it. There’s not too many niggas -- to me, anyway – that are lyrically crazy or insane. So I’d a picked a Cassidy or anybody that is supposed to be so ill in that circuit. Niggas ain’t never seen me in the circuit. I came up doing that, but the public has never seen see do it. They’ve just heard me on mixtapes and hear me going “Pump, pump, pump, pump it up”. I thought it would have been great, but nobody wanted to do it.

Last question – how’d you find out that Game was on the Change of Heart game show?

Oh. I was at a Ludacris concert during the midst of me and Game going back and forth. And Ludacris had somebody with him that was from L.A. and he was like, “Yeah, you beefin’ with a fag-ass nigga blahzay, blahzay, blah.” I’m really just paying the nigga no mind; I wasn’t really trying to talk about all of that. He actually told me about it, that the nigga was on a game show. That caught my attention. I didn’t believe him, but he told me he had the tape and was willing to send it to me when he got back home. I told him to do that, and that’s what he did. When I saw the tape, I had actually seen that episode. Hilarious.

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